Regarding Men Episode 7 – Feminism, Transgenderism and Ideology



regarding men with Janice V Mingo Paul Elam and Tom golden episode 7 feminism transgenderism and ideology well hello everyone we are here again with a contentious topic that we hope to keep focused on mainly on men's issues we're talking today about transgenderism if that is an acceptable term I'm not sure I'm Janice Domingo and I'm here with Paul Elam and Tom golden and so we're going to discuss what recent controversies and public awareness about people who transition either from male to female or from female to male what that discussion allows us to see about both the social and the biological reality of men and women I think that's going to be kind of our our main focus we were reading an article together that talked about the fact that in both the United States and in Great Britain there's generally amongst the public a lot of sympathy for individual trans people I think we all share that but also a lot of skepticism about the underlying ideology the notion that gender identity is simply anything one feels deeply in the moment and that it's unconnected to to biology there's skepticism about that I think maybe we all probably some extension here that – um so um I don't know how we want to start with this – issues for me stand out in a lot of the discussions that I've heard recently one of them is the what it reveals about the hypocrisy of the feminist movement as we know there are a number of radical feminists have given the derogatory term trans exclusionary radical feminists who are not at all happy with the trans movements claim that felt gender identity equal gender reality and they're making comp laws in all sorts of odd ways with certain conservatives they've been treated with quite a bit of deference and even celebration by others mainly conservatives but others as well who aren't happy with the this idea about gender ideology and one of the things that really strikes me is that one of the major complaints about these Turks is that they don't like men well they don't like trans women coming into female-only spaces and they you know refuse to believe that somebody who claims to be a woman was born a man can ever be a woman and you know this is interesting for all sorts of reasons one of which is that the last 20 years has been all about women invading men's spaces male-only spaces and being outraged and crying sexism and misogyny the moment any man ever tried to defend a male-only space whether it was on the basis of biology or on the basis of men's emotional and psychological need for those spaces so I can't help but feel there's a certain ironic appropriateness about feminist anger over this notion of the invasion of spaces I also can't help but think that part of maybe not entirely but part of what propels the animus against trans women amongst these Turks is actual just basic anti male bigotry that for them no matter what a trans woman may have gone through in order to claim that female identity this person is still a male and is still there for so that's one of the things that that I've noticed about these kinds of conversations and the other thing that's really fascinating that you know I probably will want to talk about a lot is the experience of individuals formerly female who have now become male and rather than that we would expect that if feminist theory were correct that becoming male and having being female in the past would mean you suddenly enter a you know social realm of enormous ease and enormous social advantages ever again feeling fear never again feeling marginalized or you know whatever feeling invisible but in fact me often it seems that the opposite is true that becoming male opens a lot of individuals eyes to the reality that male privilege is indeed a feminist myth so for those are two interesting avenues for discussion let me add one more thing to that Janice well first of all I'm shocked that you found hypocrisy and what does that ever happen before yeah the other bit of hypocrisy and all this that I find from the turfs is that feminists for more like the past 50 years have been asserting dogged ly that there is no real biological difference between men and women it doesn't exist that everything is socialized so you would think that a male to female transition for entry for a transgender individual that would be the ultimate realization of the feminist utopia hmm that it's living proof and the moment it started happening and well I mean transgenderism has been here for thousands of years but the moment it's sort of becoming a real part of the public discourse we saw the emergence of feminists who want to shut it all down because they're not real women and they took without noticing they took everything they've been proclaiming to believe for the past half century threw it right out the window and had dusted off their hands like it was never there mm-hmm yeah yeah absolutely in saying exactly and I read a quote from a tariff that was basically about that and I can't remember the exact quote but basically what she was saying was we think this is actually men trying to invade feminist space in order to get the advantages that we've had that we've worked so hard for you know it's like oh okay yeah well yeah the biology thing is just absolutely fascinating from everything is socially constructed now into well you have to have a vagina that's the term the turfs uses yes and they are one of the most billion sects of feminism that you'll encounter they are oh absolutely the terms are crazier than most there was a there was a what do you call it a conference basically where there were four turfs at the Heritage Foundation if you can believe that and we'll put a link below where you can actually see this conference it was fascinating to watch and very informative actually but fascinating but the one of the things that struck me was that if the very end of the conference they got a standing ovation the Heritage Foundation gives for turfs a standing ovation and how about that yeah it's yeah it's politics makes strange bedfellows and that's certainly the case here I mean a lot of what a lot of what terms say about their reasons for not accepting trans women into female only spaces if it were said about any other group in any other context would be seen as just pure bigotry that you know I was listening to a debate it was on louder with Crowder not I'm not a very recent one actually I think it went back all the way to 2015 and it was between a a lesbian feminist who is strongly against the inclusion of trans women as women and trans woman named JJ and and basically you know her main objection was that she said once trans women ruined the Michigan Women's Festival whatever that means because they wanted to come in and be part of this female only space how did they exactly she didn't say and yes her perch her repeated refrain was that I don't have to affirm your denial of biology I don't have to affirm your your delusion that you are a woman simply because you say you are now men have been unable to say that to women for years and in fact you major institutions in our society the police services the fire department have had to change their requirements in order to affirm the feminist illusion that there are no biological differences and we tried to say look there are actually and these are going to affect the ability of firefighters to do their jobs to rescue people from burning buildings they were just told that they were male supremacist or whatever so so yes there's there's certainly that aspect of it there's a woman in in Vancouver who runs a online magazine called feminist current I'm sure you're familiar with it and her name is oh I said I read it every day yeah her name is Nick Murphy and you know she made a career for herself as a man-hating feminist like quite explicitly Lowell occasionally she would say I don't of course feminists don't hate all men but then she would you know begin articles by saying here's this week's installment of what the ever-loving fuck is wrong with men and she would talk about how you know nail sadomasochism is is you know deeply rooted and and you know men all men are posed a threat to women and their sexual violence is condoned in society and out of control etcetera she said that for years and years and years she's now come out as a radical cerf and she's been banned from Twitter and has suddenly emerged as a free speech champion and a lot of people of course have noted that there's terrible hypocrisy in the fact that she was able for years to say the most blatantly you know male hating things and yet you don't know merely for saying on Twitter that a man a lot a woman she's been back now I of course support her free speech right to say that you know to assert that basic biological truth but it's my heart does not bleed for Megan Murphy I also think it's interesting that not only does the turf opposition we should say perhaps that there are lots of different schools within feminism some of which are very welcoming to the trans individuals for precisely the reason that you said all you know because they they don't believe in biology but the other thing that the the turf insistence that trans women can never be women strange thing that it exposes about their ideology is that they've always said that patriarchy was about men male supremacism and male hatred of women the exclusion of women women as men's other so now all of a sudden we have a group of men who don't want to be men and want to be women and not because they want to oppress women in any way but because they actually feel that they are and want to be women and to support women and be part of women's community and yet the trans exclusionary radical feminists say that this is itself a kind of patriarchal domination so it doesn't make any sense whatsoever either patriarchy is about men who think men are superior to women or patriarchy is about men who want to be women it can be both at the same time and yet that's exactly what you have a bruised ya have two conflicting thoughts at the same time yeah one thing I want to go back to for a moment time you mentioned the speech for the Heritage Foundation were the four terms kind of standing ovations right to me it's really clear what that's about that they're a lot more afraid of transgenderism than they are of feminism to me this is traditional conservatives yes jumping for joy at somebody a woman speaking out against something that frightens them the person yeah that's exactly what I see in that I don't know I'll get some criticism for that that's fine it seems apparent to me and this is just one of the ways that I think we always have to remember and looking at men's issues that we must be very careful to look past to just feminism because here you have a place like the Heritage Foundation and all these assumedly at least pro-human Pro male individuals lauding hateful bigoted feminists just for taking this stand against transgenderism and that to me reeks of the bigger problem for men when we go to address these issues what we're really fighting is a lot more complicated than you know feminists run up feminism run amuck yeah very good point I mean it's really it's all about gyno centrosome and I noticed that in the louder with Crowder discussion Steve Crowder whom I love you know but he totally bent over backwards to affirm the lesbian perspective which was that women have been so oppressed so badly treated that they need their female only spaces and a man who merely becomes a woman even if he goes through surgery etc cannot understand her oppression I thought it was the same thing when Tucker Carlson recently interviewed a lesbian feminist who was excluded from some organization I can't remember exactly what and again you know he didn't ask for any challenging questions he was just so delighted um you know in this kind of well I don't know in a very flattering kind of way and yes in a relief sort of way that here was this woman coming and saying this thing and yeah his his tendency to be skeptical of these kinds of ideological claims completely melted away so I think that is a very good point hmm as long as it's not helping men they can agree that it's good yeah and it is it's an Incred dangerous alliance I think because an alliance with people who have built their ideology on really extreme hatred of men these are the last people anybody wants to form an alliance with even with the Alliance seems to be grounded in no kind of common sense recognition of biological reality it isn't I don't think at all yet if I could change trajectory just for a moment here the part of the difficulty for me and all this is that it robs us of our ability to understand what's going on on the human level I mean we politicize this issue so much that one I'm going to say it I wake up and go to sleep every day seeing a man in the mirror believing that I'm a man and living with that awareness I can't possibly imagine what it would be like to be in the body of one sex but to internally feel convicted that you're actually the other you know the conflict that that must bring absolutely totally and completely overwhelming yes and we don't get to talk about that it with any kind of compassion on a cultural level because we're too busy acting like trained seals for the Heritage Foundation speech before terms or whatever it's and it's really crazy this is you know there is compassion needed in this and I'm not trying to burnt you a signal I've enjoyed several talks with Zander keg you know you're with and he told me as a trans man he he went through the transition the first thing that he noticed was that nobody gave a fuck about him anymore and these are his words not mine even as a big oversized Dyke feminist people everyday asked her how she felt and how she was doing yep and genuinely wanted to know and the moment he started presenting as a male in public the world stopped caring didn't want to hear anything and indeed the most common question that he got in touring and talking about his transition was let's male priviledge like right we don't have a discussion about any and all of this stuff we're too busy trying to pick sides in a war now I'm gonna make it real plain I believe at individual liberty if you wanna live as a man or a woman it's none of my business and shouldn't be the government's business shouldn't be anybody's business don't expect me to build a bathroom for you exactly I'm serious about that unexpected I agree reach in my pocket and and don't expect me to honor a special Lobby on this I'll treat you like you want to be treated and I won't be a bigot and an asshole but that's where it stops and that is for women becoming men making that transition that's one of their hardest lessons and it's another thing we don't talk about is the difficulty that transgender men have in learning to navigate the masculine landscape is treacherous for them they are so used to one experience as a woman and they come in and the appearance between men is that we don't give a fuck about each other right is that we'll stick the knife in with each other and twist it in some ways that's true but there's another part of it that is hard to see the men bond oh I'm having trouble again I can't hear anything uh-oh it'll come back hangers now okay now I came back again yeah I'm having some trouble trouble sorry about that thank you it'll come back but anyway as I was saying it that men bond through roughness they bond with very few words they they bought with that with a very slight amount of body contact with each other these things are so alien to the world of women but there is a tremendous amount of intimacy in that that women never see and that trans men have a terrible time coming as comes with yes because they're used to the woman's emotional experience yes this is something else clinically working between people talking to them and having a public dialogue these are the things we should be talking about in my opinion and not so much about whether every state's going to call up a billion dollars to build new bathrooms or for whether or not you're really a man or really a woman or any of these other moron conversations in my opinion because in the end it doesn't matter anyway had to rant about that first oh man that was a well worthwhile rant I am the trans people that I've found so wonderful are the ones the trans men who have written about their transition Paul of from women to men specifically about their emotional transition and how they deal with emotions differently because you know all of our years of research with testosterone has research has been struggling to try and prove that it's related their aggression and violence and which is bullshit you know and so now we get a whole group of people these biological women who have taken huge doses of testosterone and now we can see what happens to them as far as the way they deal with emotions and as this great book max Valerio wrote this book called the testosterone files and it's about his transition from female to male but the things that I loved about the book were that he talked about the idea of how it was so hard for him to start to understand things from a male perspective emotionally he didn't see and say you know before it was like I'd go to my girlfriends and cry you know but now the tears have dried up you know we know now the testosterone literally dries up the tears and he said God one of the things he said that's so important he says you know and now finding that when I'm in the throes of feeling something I cannot articulate what is happening I cannot articulate what is happening how many times therapy if I see in men he said what are you feeling he can't articulate it he's not there and in testosterone is a part of that I got to give you a max quote max you know at the end of the book Max is talking about this whole transition and Max says I had believed that men could cry just as much as women if they would just let themselves and go men were victims of a masculine ethos that forbade tears that made them into unfeeling seething septic tanks of repressed pain ready to lash out I was wrong max learned by taking the testosterone oh my god these men are naturally like this this is their natural state you know this is not something that they're making up this is something on that way too you know so it's just my hat is off to these people and to max in particular you know for being able to articulate this stuff because it's so incredibly helping helpful it's just amazing you know yeah the worst of this is here is another teaching opportunity yeah for therapists who work with men yes mostly what we have are feminists indoctrinated therapists who write out a treatment plan and literally say something is brain-dead as client will cry times three in session that morning death of Bob those are I'm not exaggerating my area it's worse than that though and sometimes men released tears to deal with with pain and that but mostly what men tend to do is take action and two guys together yes guys getting a divorce you'll see him grab a friend and go fishing and I mean I think Tim words to each other while they're in the bass boat but that those hours in that boat are healing the positive bleeding process and we have an entire industry a feminist collisions who do not understand this all they want to do is talk talk and the other thing that men do Paul is that they'll move towards solitude yep move towards being quiet and it's in the desires that they process what's that which is where it can get dangerous well yeah in some ways but it also gets healed sometimes yes men are basically telling their story within that solitude so it's a good thing and people shame them all the time you know they're not expressing feelings I shame them for isolating and I agree with you more often than not they're going to heal but this is where men I think could stand to do a little better job looking out for each other is during those periods of isolation yeah during a divorce when the suicide rate is 11 times in and then that's the problem for men is that men will tend to isolate and either go into solitude or do some action and it keeps them away from people who would say hey man come on I'm gonna take you into the damn emergency room you got trouble right now you know because women interact to heal they're talking to other people and those people go hey something's wrong I'm yanking you to the hospital then don't have that opportunity you know and I'm sure the trans men really get an eyeful of how things are different for them yeah and Xander has been very articulate and being able to describe that yes he had a whole thing about now no one gives a shit about me you know no one asks how I'm doing anymore he's a man and what can I say but welcome to my world exactly exactly Paul we've learned how to deal with that and we take different steps in order to heal ourselves but yeah for trans men I'm sure it's really tough yeah can you imagine having to take that in almost I mean transitions happened over a long period of the time this yeah things I learned from Zander they don't just go in for an operation and and you're done right but still it's a relatively short period of time can you imagine going from being one sex living in the world is the other in that period of time and then all the sudden nobody cares nobody gives nobody wants to hear your pain nobody wants to know what you're going through I mean I wonder about the suicide rate in these people yes I wonder that too in fact two of the stories that the turfs told about these young girls who were like teenagers who are transitioning into being men at the even though their parents didn't want them to basically they did it anyway both of them maybe it was one of them but they ended up basically homeless and and isolated and unhappy extremely unhappy you know and I think that's a part of what's happening here is that this transition is really tough now I think sometimes what I've read and what max talks about in the book is that the trans men will stick together and they kind of learn from each other about how to do things and they're buddies they're male buddies we'll help them too but it's a rough road you know it's a bumpy ride I'm sure my heart goes out to him that's tough I think that you know you've really made such a good point both of you two about how I mean this whole discussion it could be about it could be an opportunity for us all to have a deeper understanding sext or if we want to use the term gender I get away from gendered experience it really would help us to have a far deeper and it's quite exciting actually to be able to think about what testosterone actually does and it's first-hand accounts from trans men who are experiencing that I mean what an amazing thing to finally get away from the idea that anything men do that feminists don't like and that our whole society really now it seems doesn't like actually is deeply rooted in testosterone is like impatience or the incredible focus that some men have your work or a passion or whatever that these things are social constructs they're not the results privileged they're not the result of power and control games they're they're about what it means to be a man at the most basic level and yeah it's it's amazing that well I mean maybe this will become that opportunity as if we don't allow it to be hijacked by the very shrill voices both on the side of the trans lobby and you know and uh the radical feminist side of things because yeah I thought that too I mean for any readers who are interested there's if you want a really quick I think it's four stories there's a Washington Post article fairly recently that includes Xander's story right simply articulate and also three other trans men and their their experience one of the things that Sanders said that I also thought was really amazing was if I'm remembering correctly he is a social worker I think yes my team of of social workers and it's mostly women also of course and you know he said that it's amazing to him now to sit around the table and to talk about men's issues as it relates to social work if you have a violent woman the conversation is always around what's causing the violence you know because there ever is there is there mental illness is there a history of sexual violence is there an addiction problem all that kind of thing but if the man is violent it's just this is how men are this is their assertion of power and control and it's never acceptable so you know that you know and so he's really seeing now that total lack of compassion for men and so yeah one has to wonder if I mean I often I hear anti trans activists saying that the fact that that many transgender individuals commit suicide whose this is an unhealthy thing you know that people shouldn't be allowed to transition but it may well be as you're saying that part of the problem is that we are not as a society attentive to the human dilemma of existing in the other sex and how how difficult that is and so these stories of trans men are all to us to actually list and it's amazing one guy in that in the Washington Post article talked about how the first day that he went outside sort of presenting entirely as a man he walked out and one of the first things that happened to him was that he tried to go into a building and a woman walked in in front of him and he was expecting that she would hold the door open it was many times before when he was presenting as a woman and the door just slammed shut in his face he said he literally walked into the door and that too is just fascinating you know it's sort of trivial example in a way maybe but all of the people who wrote about their transition I think mentioned something about that the automatic assumption that they'd had as women that they would be deferred to and that you know they'd be they'd be getting on the bus first or people would give them seats and all those kinds of things and then to have that not be a part of their reality either all these things are a really fascinating yes metaphorically the slam door is beautiful because that's exactly what it is and and to me it's precisely why we have turfs they don't want and and and much to their discredit the trans activists community is doing a poor poor job of getting the real issues out there it's all about angry activism and demanding things from government which is I I mean I don't know if people can't learn anything from feminists they should learn that that that is a dead-end road ultimately for people the victim ideology but they don't want this discussion that we're having about what real issues are that like that trans men go through why because it would force us into a compassionate discussion about men huh that's acting and they're not going to have that yeah it it would force us into an honest discussion that men about testosterone about all these things that you guys just said that we've all been talking about here we would have to have a discussion about those things in order to talk honestly about transgenderism and where the feminist lobby is not going to allow that to happen and I'm beginning to think that the trans Lobby is not going to allow that to happen interesting yeah yeah it's very interesting I mean there are you know of course there are legitimate issues on on the feminist side to move we talked briefly about them before about the invasion of trans women into women's sports and you know the impact that's having on women you know that kind of thing and there are a lot of problems with with bathrooms and there have been some cases of I guess of men actually sex sexual predators masquerading as trans women in order to gain access to women on these phases of course I have sympathy but that's a different issue really all together that isn't that the ordinary trans individual who genuinely wants to make the transition is is not attempting to use their trans status in order to violate somebody like through the cotton ceiling yeah exactly do you know about the cotton ceiling no I don't that's the that's apparently yes the lesbian fear of their cotton Underpants being broken by a myth basically and they're they're accusing the trans women of possibly breaking the cotton ceiling that should have been the other you can't make this shit up and as I say if yeah it's correct you're right I think you're both of your two points about how you know this does that therefore it's too bad because it prevents the kind of really important and incredibly helpful discussion of what it Act really is to be male in our society even especially even about I mentioned this to you guys at last week um after we stopped recording about the sexual experience of men and women I mean it essentially sex has now become a discussion that is so totally dominated by feminist perspectives that it's impossible for any woman who is really interested to actually know at least I mean aside from honest conversations with friends but to understand anything about men sexual reality it is entirely exclusive of men's real experiences and that's incredibly dangerous considering that we are obsessed now with women's sexual safety and with the experience of women you know which is supposedly one of sexual harassment and constant sexual harassment and sexual objectification because I remember as a young person you know marinated in feminist ideology watching a program long ago in the 1990s about the experiences of trans men and how their whole sexual experience and sexual identity changed when they were taking testosterone and and now everything about the way they understood themselves as sexual beings changed that's who is a completely any compassionate recognition of that is completely off the table in today's culture and that's really I heard I heard a interview of a trans man on I think it was on the NPR talking about his experiences and one of the things he talked about was that after he started taking a lot of testosterone he got interested in specific body parts especially breasts and butts and he said he'd see a woman walking down the street and he would his eyes were just good immediately to her breasts and as she walked by he had an irresistible urge turn around and look at her butt and I'm thinking yeah well in my world you know this that's not right Yeah right the other thing that but that interview said which was fascinating was the guy said that as soon as he started taking large doses of testosterone he started doing so much better in his physics class he said he could not understand physics before–the testosterone but as soon as he started taking that testosterone it became easy yeah yeah and yet we're not allowed to talk about any of those things now it would help us so much to understand how we could sanely order our society and how we could sanely discuss the balance between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome and also how he could same ly discuss the things that especially young men do you know we now have this notion that I remember I don't know if it was born feral or some men's issues advocate who talked about how you know we're so down on a young man if he reaches out and touches a young woman let's say at a dance we never think of the thousand times that he prevented himself from doing so you know he had this very very strong urge to touch a woman they don't want the buttocks let's say yeah one time he gives in and suddenly he's a sex fiend with absolutely no understanding on the part of women of the power of his desire to do so and how often he is exercises for strength you know and feminists again are I can just imagine the response to me saying this this submission you know commend be badly that all that kind of thing know what we're talking about is understanding why we are in the situations that we're in and that's something that you know the fact that feminists and our society in general doesn't want to understand is a very frightening fact the last thing they won't understand is men yeah you know it's funny Janice you were talking a couple of minutes ago about this obsessing obsession that we have on on women's sexual safety and it is only equalled by our obsession on women's freedom to make sexually irresponsible decisions absolutely talk about those two conflicting ideas at the same time and that's what you get if if I come out and say you know how about a rape prevention programs don't teach women how not to get raped teach men not to rape that even if you talk about teaching women how to take care of themselves physically in situations which I am all for doing you do that and I've gotten hate mail over advocating that yeah it's it's really really crazy yeah yeah yeah I know it's yeah so I mean maybe it is possible that this moment will be one that leads to a greater honesty and understanding about some of these issues the differences between men and women the different experiences that men and women have and maybe some trans individuals I'm sure the last thing most trans individuals want is to have to be spokespersons for the entirety of the sex but certainly it's true that those people do have unique insights about what it means to cross the divide yes they do and it would serve their cause a lot better if they were a little better about getting the real issues out there those kind of issues paint the ones that people will find interesting and engaging and want to listen to because most people you know once you get their attention with something especially if you talk if you frame it in terms of a woman's experience I mean the the turfs got the standing ovation from the Heritage Foundation most of that was like I said it was the fear of transgenderism and and the guy no centrism but a lot of it gal centrism there's ways that they could use these issues and talk about them which would in just closer to this dangerous territory of framing things in terms of how they affect men yeah and get past some of people's fears you know I think people are afraid of of the whole thing you know it's pretty scary for people well what had been scary for me maybe when I was 15 but after you know it so to change their sex I mean yes well but you know we're supposed to be the grown-ups in the room here yeah and the grown-ups don't want to deal with it you know that's because they're afraid I think it's at least a part of it and then there's all kinds of others issues in this the idea of hormone therapy for children yeah we could do a whole hour on that bit of insanity child abuse Planned Parenthood is now involved in hormone replacement therapy for little girls yeah and they wonder why Republicans want to take their funding away oh my gosh yeah well that is a case where I think people have the right to feel afraid because it is terrifying to think of of indoctrinating children you know young as age of 3 or 5 that they should think about transitioning and parents being pressured and teachers being pressured to affirm this questioning of one's gender identity as such a young age and therefore these hormone blockers being given and everything that is it's amazing I mean here in Ontario a bill was passed by the Ontario provincial government that gives child and protection services the right in certain phases to take children away from their families if the child has been led to believe that he or she was actually in the wrong sexed body and anyone if the parents object that the child can be apprehended and placed in a foster home so I mean that is terrifying we're talking about hideous state control of over families and over children to to a to an end you know nobody can imagine and these these hold on blockers we don't even know what the long-term consequences of them are but many of them have irreversible consequences and they're very serious so that that aspect of the trans movement is quite frightening certainly and think of it this way if we don't care about children any more than to be giving them and that means and other drugs to manage their behavior and not thinking about consequences of that it's not much of a stretch to get to this nothing personal Janice but in some ways your country is really scary these days yeah yeah it's bizarre yeah it's it's truly bizarre to think that we've come to this so quickly but there is this love we have a love affair with the state as the ultimate arbiter of all things yes we're not farming yeah it's crazy so yeah so a lot of stuff to talk about Lila that's a good start I think that's a good start that's a good start how are we coming up they're closing yeah start issuing some some awards yeah well the humanitarian award we agreed would go to Xandar keg for putting himself out there making himself in essence a target everywhere he goes even in his own community yes I standing up for what the real experiences of his transition has meant a young and by contributing such meaningful work to the dialogue so he gets that award and we decided that we would split the flying puta to go between the transgender Lobby and the turf lobby two of them there they come together take off you Buddhist so guys wise up we don't need the nonsense anymore we need to get real yes absolutely yeah well thank you guys for a great discussion was good and we'll see you all next week for a brand new shoe that makes it fun that would be something it'll be something something we'll see you there material probably [Laughter] will see you bye bye this movie you

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